Comments on: Carl Trueman: Luther on Justification and Sanctification https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/ Reformed Theological Resources Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:10:11 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.7.2 By: Michael T. https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1380884 Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:10:11 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1380884 What’s the hymn that plays at around the 7:30 mark in the second podcast?

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By: Chris https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1378505 Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:07:02 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1378505 In reply to Patrick Ramsey.

No – for many reasons. For one thing, Bozeman is writing about the pre-civil war period of the 17th century. For another, I am hard-pressed to think of any pastor in 17th century England (or today) whose life and practice are always in 100% conformity with the Westminster Standards. It seems entirely possible to articulate orthodox theology and practice in creedal form, and yet fall short of it in practice. Don’t we do this on a daily basis in our Christian lives? For yet another, it seems to me that there would have to be such a thing as Puritanism with a creed that summarizes what it means to be a Puritan, and that all Puritans would have to subscribe that creed – in order for your question to necessarily follow from what I said.

Please note that I am not claiming any kind of infallibility for Bozeman. He may very well be wrong about many things. But he provides enough primary source evidence for enough points to convince me that he is not all wet. I am concerned that his book has been in print for almost a decade now, and no one seems to have seriously engaged it – least of all conservative, Reformed historical theologians.

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By: Patrick Ramsey https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1378326 Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:34:15 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1378326 In reply to Camden Bucey.

Thanks.

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By: Patrick Ramsey https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1378325 Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:33:54 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1378325 In reply to Chris.

Does this mean then that the Westminster Standards express a “rigid, unrelenting and unforgiving moralism, legalism and pietism”?

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By: Bruce https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1378233 Thu, 21 Feb 2013 12:16:07 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1378233 That is spot on.

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By: Benjamin P. Glaser https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377786 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:33:49 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377786 I think the problem here is that while Horton/Tullian may affirm with their “mouth” the third use of the law, their writings and teachings/pastoral applications tell a different story.

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By: Chris https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377783 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:19:16 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377783 I will listen to this mp3, and Mark Jones’s new book is on my reading list, but I continue to maintain that the term “antinomianism” was used (at least in the 17th century) for a wide variety of beliefs and practices, some of which simultaneously affirmed the third use of the law.

It is also fascinating to observe that the antinomian controversy was its fiercest in 17th century England. I think that the contested nature of the Church of England and the failure of puritans to both unify and to wrest the sword of the state in enforcing Reformation account for this. There were licentious people on the continent, but the continental Reformed – including Witsius, who was asked to moderate a debate between English disciples of Richard Baxter and Tobias Crisp – had tranquil ecclesiastical environments in which to respond pastorally to authentic rejections of the third use of the law.

T.D. Bozeman has written an amazing book entitled “The Precisianist Strain: Disciplinary Religion and Antinomian Backlash in Puritanism to 1638. The silence of contemporary Reformed historical theologians on Bozeman’s work is deafening. I say that, not quite sure myself, whether the book is an altogether helpful or unhelpful “amazing.” Still, I think he demonstrates well enough that many alleged antinomians were simply reacting against a rigid, unrelenting and unforgiving moralism, legalism and pietism. And I think those things characterized 17th century English churches because puritans could not get the State to enforce the Reformation in England, so they turned inward and attempted to Reform individuals with a vengeance. If that has the ring of truth at all, then even when we disagree with men like Tobias Crisp, we need to see that most of them were simply reacting against something truly disgusting and bad.

Enter men like Michael Horton and Tullian Tchividjian. They are not antinomians, if words mean anything. They both affirm the third use of the law. If there is any comparison to be made between them and the majority of the 17th century English antinomians, it is that they are reacting against a “leading with the sanctification foot,” or a confusing of justification and sanctification, or an obscuring of justification by sanctification.

In that regard, at the very least, I am with them.

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By: Camden Bucey https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377769 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 20:16:52 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377769 In reply to Patrick Ramsey.

Here’s a direct link: https://s3.amazonaws.com/mos.alliancenet.org/M001.mp3

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By: Patrick Ramsey https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377738 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:36:06 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377738 Is there a way to download the podcast?

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By: Ian Hugh Clary https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377701 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:09:17 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377701 I listened to this last night while doing some editorial work on an upcoming book on antinomianism, so it was kind’ve ironic to listen to this unexpected discussion.
Trueman is dead-on—first when it comes to confessional subscription, and second when it comes to the pastoral problems of this modern version of antinomianism. What he said about the Christian who abuses his wife is the sharpest example; it puts it into clear perspective.
I’m also glad that he put Luther in greater historical context, this is needed by those who dive into Luther without an understanding of the Reformer’s own growth in thought, or the intellectual climate that he was writing in. Everybody should listen to this (and buy the book on antinomianism when it comes out!).

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By: David Morgan https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377696 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:54:42 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377696 In reply to Camden Bucey.

Sounds like a great idea for an episode of Christ the Centre! (Although a discussion between Mark Jones and Michael Horton on anti-nomianism and covenant theology might be even better)

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By: Camden Bucey https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377671 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:33:37 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377671 In reply to David Morgan.

Thanks for posting, David. I wonder if there will be any response or healthy interaction. Perhaps some sort of sit-down discussion might be the best sort of format for this type of thing.

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By: Camden Bucey https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377670 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:30:22 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377670 In reply to Tim H..

Thanks for posting this. Where did you find it? They sure didn’t make it easy!

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By: Tim H. https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377665 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:25:55 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377665 For those having as much trouble as I did finding the RSS feed: http://info.alliancenet.org/taxonomy/term/555/all/feed

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By: David Morgan https://reformedforum.org/carl-trueman-luther-on-justification-and-sanctification/#comment-1377658 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:17:03 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=2584#comment-1377658 I have a great deal of respect for Dr Trueman, and there are few living theologians whom I more eagerly read/listen to when I find new material by them, but in this case I’m not convinced that he fairly represented Tullian’s theology and pastoral application – the paragraph beginning with “I preached from…” and the subsequent one in http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tullian/2012/08/23/the-pastoral-practicality-of-law-gospel-theology/ seem to give a very different picture of how to respond in these situations than what Dr Trueman accuses him of doing at 10:25-11:01. Tullian also believes in the third use of the law (I think he says that in Justin Taylor’s interview with him on his book “Surprised by Grace”).

That’s not to say that the historical assessment is not correct, nor that there isn’t any cause for concern, of course.

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