This is Nate from Springfield. Long time listener, first time caller. I usually agree with you on everything, but this time I’ve got to put my foot down. In my view, it’s clear that Bach will make it, but I can’t see any reason to suppose that the Who will.

Hey and anyway, what about abstract objects? Propositions? Properties? Mathematics? Logic? These are eternal right? They existed before the world is created, so they’ll exist after its gone. Essences too, of course.

Bring it on.

Jon, not sure if you mean you think I intend to say if your not a preterist your not orthodox-by no means! I reject fully hyper preterist as it is a heresy and non- orthodox. I hold to what’s typically called partial preterism ala rc sproul and ken gentry. I just meant that if you take many of the prophetic passages in the n.t. as a futurist ( ie Matt 24, much of rev. , the epistles of Peter) then that I can see how you could see these exile and pilgrim passages as applying to the church in all ages rather than primarily to those who it was written to or spoken to, which I think those passages apply to.

As we know the passing away of the old age began with the incarnation and work of Christ and fully passed away with the destruction of the temple in ad70.

Wasn’t the wandering and exiles part of Gods judgement on unfaithful and/or unbelieving Israel? I don’t think that scripture states the blood bought and redeemed church of Christ is to be under his judgement ( evev as we deliver the good news) until Christ returns!

As far as the idea of Christ abdicating His heavenly throne for an earthly one you know that’s a position of the premise not either of us!

Lastly no lasting city?!? Is not the church that city the new Jerusalem? With Christ as its chief cornerstone. Christ rules and reigns here on earth through the Holy Spirit empowered church here on earth. How do you handle the new heaven and earth passages in Isaiah? They are of a temporal time before the consummation, without spiritualizing too much?

Interestingly the recent Christ the center episode discussing hodge reminded me of an article called ” the Bible, the great statute book of the kingdom” posted at americanvision discussing Hodges view of Christs kingdom here on earth and thE Christians responsibility and expectation of it.

As far as the power being made perfect in weakness, I agree that thE kingdom is grown not through authoritarian power but proclamation of the gospel and obedience to it!

Lastly the new testament may not speak as explicitly as we like but we can clearly see in the whole of scripture that Christ kingdom is established to some extent, in fact to quite a glorious level, here on earth, in time by the spreading of the gospel and faithfullness to the great commission. Perhaps the view of wilderness wandering and being mere pilgrims rather than soldiers in Christs kingdom comes from a “futurist” view of some of the prophetic texts of the n.t. Rather then a preterist (partial/orthodox) view of those passages!

Matt,
I believe I am tracking with you other than your dismissal of the wilderness epoch of this age. I take 1 Corinthians 10 to be a basic launching pad for this epoch alongside the entire book of Hebrews, meaning that a sabbath rest still remains and even though Joshua entered into the “Holy Land” it was merely earthly and typological. The power of this age is an over coming power, but it is a power made perfect in weakness. Thus, I believe the post-mills all too often spell “triumph” with an alphabet that the N.T. does not know.

No problem at all! I’m concerned about the use of “redemption” language applied unthinkingly to cities, systems, etc., but I was trying to make the case that there may be a legitimate use for it under amil. I may be wrong on that, but hope others will add insight to these issues. Thanks for the thoughts.

You just persuaded me that there may be times that that language will, in fact, be unwise and confusing. In no way does a recognition of a non-salvific, contextual redemption necessarily lead to post-mill transformationalism.

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He shall reign forever and ever” (Rev. 11:15). The Messiah’s reign has been established on earth (Matt. 12:28; 28:18). He need only ask the Father, and the nations will be given to Him for His inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for His possession (Ps. 2:8). With that end in mind Christ commissioned the church to make all the nations His obedient disciples (Matt. 28:19-20). Having bound Satan so that He is restrained from deceiving the nations (Rev. 20:2-30, Christ is now despoiling Satan’s house (Matt. 12:29). This is why the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the onslaught of Christ’s church (Matt. 16-18). Crowned with glory and honor (Heb. 2:9), Christ has been enthroned at God’s right hand “henceforth expecting his enemies to be made the footstool of His feet” (Heb. 10:13).

Do we expect what Christ expects to take place in history? Is His expectation that all nations and all enemies shall be won over to Him which is an expectation based on the Father’s promise, nothing more than wishful thinking? No Bible-believing Christian would say that. However, many would postpone the fulfillment of Christ’s expectation to after His second coming — despite the “realized” nature of the preceding Bible passages (their clear application to this present age). Premillennialists postpone Christ’s triumph to a future millennial age, while amillenialists postpone it to the future new heavens and earth. Postmillennialists, as genuinely “realized millennialists,” expect Christ’s subduing of his enemies to be accomplished before the second coming. So did Paul. “For He [Christ] must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet; the last enemy that shall be abolished is death” (1 Cor. 15:25-26) — pointing to the resurrection of believers “at His coming,” which brings “the end” (vv. 23-24). All other enemies will be put under Christ’s feet, therefore, prior to His coming (prior to the end).

This is the postmillennial confidence we should all share. It is not enough to be an “Optimistic amil” who believes that widespread triumph for Christ’s kingdom is possible and who personally hopes it will take place. The Bible message about Christ’s kingdom is stronger and more definite than that. “Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from henceforth and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this” (Isa. 9:7). God’s kingdom shall grow from a stone to be a mountain that fills the earth, and “the dream is certain” (Dan. 2:35, 44-45). The confidence of the prophets was that all nations would flow into the church to be nurtured by God’s word, live by His just standards and learn peace (Isa. 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3). “In His days shall the righteous flourish, and abundance of peace until the moon be no more. He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth … And His enemies shall lick the dust … All nations shall serve Him” (Ps. 72:7-11). “All the ends of the earth shall turn unto Jehovah” (Ps. 22:27), and then shall “the earth be full of the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9).

How shall this be accomplished? The New Testament clearly points us to the enabling presence of Christ with the church, the preaching of the gospel (Matt. 28:18-20), and the powerful work of the Pentecostal Spirit (e.g., Acts 2:32-41). With such resources the kingdom of Christ will be characterized by surprising growth (Matt. 13:31-33). Christ shall draw all men to Himself (John 12:32) and “lead justice unto victory” (Matt. 12:20). The preaching of the gospel — the sword from Christ’s mouth — shall utterly conquer the nations (Rev. 19:11-16). The fullness of the Gentiles shall be brought in, provoking even the Jews — all Israel — to be received again and saved, signifying veritable “life from the dead” for the world (Rom. 11:11-15, 25-26). We should conclude, then, that Christ has set before His believing and persevering church “a door opened which none can shut” — consequently, that even the most antagonistic opponents shall bow down, and Christ’s church shall enjoy with Him authority over the nations (Rev. 3:7-9; 2:25-27; 20:4). That is not just a vain hope, but the promise of God.
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Matt,
I didn’t take this posting to be a “but then do an about face and go right back to the two kingdom model” as if Jared is being confused about his “inner postmillenialism”. Knowing Jared pretty well, I believe I can safely refer you to his own position on millennial issues by pointing you to Gaffin, Vos Beale, and Kline.
“For we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world”, no matter how “redeemed” we believe it to be. Maybe to shed light on your position, can you show us one thing besides the inner man of a Human, than has been redeemed? Meaning, that is posses imperishable glory ala 1 Corinthians 15. The problem is that the word “Redeemed” begins to be stretched like the word “evangelical”. Even when Jesus healed the eyes of the blind, their physical eyes perished over time, which is a direct result of the fall. So was Jesus redeeming their eyes? No, he was pointing to the redemption of their true sight. He gave then the eyes of faith. It will only be upon his final return that Faith will become Sight. Until then we live in this already/not yet epoch of wilderness wondering, where we walk by faith and not by sight.