Comments on: Definite Atonement Is at the Heart of the Gospel https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/ Reformed Theological Resources Sat, 01 Mar 2014 16:23:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.7.1 By: Bill https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1667914 Sat, 01 Mar 2014 16:23:00 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1667914 You see the key difference between the original Reformers Luther and Calvin and the scholastic Reformers like Beza, Dort, and the WC is that for Luther and Calvin the atonment precedes election . For Beza, Dort, and WC election logically precedes the atonement. This is what I wrote yesterday for another blog. I have copied / pasted below. Luther and Calvin are Christ centered while Dort is election centered.

Calvin taught unlimited atonement. See his commentary on John 1:29 , John 3:16, and Romans 5:18. You see for Calvin the application of the atonement was limited (unconditional election, God creates faith through the work of the Spirit in the elect only when the word is preached) but the atonement itself was unlimited (the work of Christ on the cross was for all sinners, Christ paid the penalty for sin for all sinners). The difference between Calvin and Dort is that for Calvin the atonement precedes election, Christ died for all (all are called) and out of those that Christ died for God chooses a few (few are chosen). For Dort election precedes the atonement, God elects some and then sends his Son to redeem those that he elected. So Calvin and Dort are opposite each other, for Calvin the atonement was unlimited but election was unconditional and limited and only was possible because Christ had atoned for sin first. But for Dort election precedes the atonement, in that God elects some and subsequently atones for their sin.

]]>
By: Bill https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1667736 Sat, 01 Mar 2014 06:49:43 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1667736 In reply to Bill.

Now even though Christ died for all and paid in full the penalty of sin for all, not all go to heaven. Why, because they lack faith. This is exactly what the lutheran confessions teach and also what Calvin teaches, see in his commentary on John 3:16 right after the paragraph I quoted where Calvin teaches the universality of the atonement he goes onto say that not all are saved, but this is due to lack of faith not due to a limited atonement. For by grace we have been saved through faith, so the atonement is universal full payment for sin is made by Christ for all humanity but without faith it profits us nothing. Calvin was a lutheran the way he speaks in his commentary on Romans 3:16. Here’s another piece of John Calvin’s magnificent commentary on Romans 3:16 http://www.studylight.org/com/cal/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=3 . You see Christ died for all (so that believers are saved and unbelievers are left without excuse and can not blame Christ for not paying for their sin, but have only their unbelief to blame) but the spirit creates faith only on the elect.

John Calvin:
Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father — that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.

]]>
By: Bill https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1667723 Sat, 01 Mar 2014 06:25:13 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1667723 More from John Calvin’s commentary and how unlimited atonement is the only biblical view. Calvin’s commentary on John 3:16 is the best ever written and shows Calvin’s passion for unlimited atonement. Calvin writes that if Christ had not atoned for the sins of every sinner and fully paid its penalty, we could not preach the gospel to anybody. I am only extracting one paragraph but I urge you brothers to read the whole of Calvin’s commentary on John 3:16 http://www.studylight.org/com/cal/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=3 so that you understand that the Canons of Dort and the Westminster Confession teach a heretical and anti calvinistic view of the atonement.

Calvin on John 3:16
That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found inthe world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.

]]>
By: Bill https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1667708 Sat, 01 Mar 2014 06:09:48 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1667708 In reply to Bill.

John Calvin, possibly the greatest theologian that ever lived, together with Martin Luther. What does Calvin has to say about the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, his commentary on John 1:29 shows the universality of the atonement in Calvin’s theology
http://www.studylight.org/com/cal/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=1

John Calvin:
“Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”

]]>
By: Bill https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1667707 Sat, 01 Mar 2014 06:04:24 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1667707 In reply to Bill.

Another way of proving unlimited atonement is by looking at Israel. There’s plenty of reference in the books of the Law and the Prophets that point to atonement made for all of Israel (not just the elect but all the disobedient Israelites as well). For example Leviticus 16 speaks of the atoning sacrifices that point to Jesus sacrifice and it clearly shows it is for the non elect as well as the elect. Here are a few verses:

Leviticus 16:16-17
16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel.

Leviticus 16:19
19 He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

Leviticus 16:21
21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head.

As you can see the atonement was for the disobedience of both repentant and unrepentant sinners. The atonement is an objective payment that God demands for sin and it does not refer to particular persons but for all sins committed for all mankind. This was Anselm doctrine of satisfaction, which the Reformed have totally tossed aside and thus destroyed the preaching of the power of the cross unto salvation and even the necessity of atoning for sin is not recognized in Reformed theology any longer. There is not one but multiple verses in Calvin’s commentary where he clearly states that Christ had to die for the sins of the whole world and made full satisfaction to God, thus reconciling God to the world and the human race. In my next post I will quote more from Calvin’s commentary so that the reformed can wake up to the heresy of definite atonement that Calvin decried.

]]>
By: Bill https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1663718 Tue, 25 Feb 2014 07:10:49 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1663718 In reply to Bill.

As you can see John Calvin is crystal clear, Christ died for the sins of the whole world, his blood was shed for all. The reason people go to hell as John Calvin and the lutheran church teach is not because Christ did not die for them, but because they did not receive Christ’s atoning sacrifice. So the fault lies with man and not with Christ’s atonement whose blood was shed for all men. The Reformed love to blame Christ and teach that his blood was not shed for all, instead of blaming man who does not receive the blood shed for him as Calvin teaches.

John Calvin from commentary on Romans 5″18 http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom38.ix.x.html

John Calvin:
“for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him.”

]]>
By: Bill https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1663717 Tue, 25 Feb 2014 07:03:28 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1663717 All i know is this, John Calvin if he were alive today would call anathema the doctrine of limited atonement and would join the lutheran church. As I many times explained you CAN NOT preach the gospel if you adhere to a doctrine of limited atonement. You basically are denying that Christ’s death is pertains to every single sinner that was ever born and that the gospel needs to be preached to all. The gospel is for sinners, not for a chosen few. John Calvin unequivocally teaches unlimited atonement. In John Calvin’s words, Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world and not for the sins of a few people. As Calvin clearly teaches if Christ had not died for the sins of the whole world the gospel could not be preached to the world. It is that simple, the Reformed are apostatizing and denying the great commission by adhering to the doctrine of limited atonement which Calvin never taught. I am going to quote Calvin from his Commentary on Romans 5:18 http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom38.ix.x.html

“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him.”

]]>
By: Camden Bucey https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1661238 Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:19:12 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1661238 In reply to Luke Johnson.

Yes, that was either an autocorrect or subconscious error (What would that say about me?!). Thanks for pointing that out.

]]>
By: Camden Bucey https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1661237 Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:18:02 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1661237 In reply to don bryant.

Don,

These are excellent thoughts. I did say it is at the heart of the gospel, which is not to say that if someone rejects the doctrine, they cannot be saved. From my view, it is essential to the gospel, however, so is God’s decree, his sovereignty, the pactum salutis, etc. But genuine believers differ on those points as well.

Blessings,

Camden

]]>
By: Camden Bucey https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1661235 Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:14:42 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1661235 In reply to J. Brandon Burks.

Yes. That was a bad one…

]]>
By: Luke Johnson https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1660853 Thu, 20 Feb 2014 03:14:27 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1660853 In the first sentence, shouldn’t the statement in the parentheses read “(also called particular redemption or limited atonement)”? Right now it ways that definite atonement is also called particular redemption or unlimited atonement.

]]>
By: Kaspars Ozolins https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1660833 Wed, 19 Feb 2014 22:55:51 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1660833 Thanks for the post, Camden. I have an SDA background, but I have been drawn to Reformed theology and I very much appreciate your excellent podcast work. I am a bit confused as to the details of this doctrine as held by various different popular theologians. For example, in his lecture series on the five points, John Piper appears to support a definite atonement, while also including within the work of Christ the possibility (were someone non-elect to repent) of it covering every single human being that ever existed. If so, how would such a sacrifice square with penal substitutionary atonement, which requires a specific people for whom Christ became a substitute, in order for their sins to be atoned for.

Thanks!

]]>
By: don bryant https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1660811 Wed, 19 Feb 2014 19:33:20 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1660811 In reply to Steven Menteer.

Good question. I am essentially talking about Apostles, Nicene and Athanasian Chrisitanity. Thomas Oden identifies it with the Christianity of the first five centuries. I am comfortable with that. There is no way most Protestants would be. Still, I am. Scot McKnight points out in his book The King Jesus Gospel that as church history develops, church confessions increasingly focused on the “how do I get saved?” question, the focus being on “I.” Soteriology overwhelms most of the other categories, or the other categories are in the service of soteriology. Like McKnight, I think that is not an unqualified positive development.
I do appreciate what Cardinal John Henry Newman asserts in his Development of Christian Doctrine that we surely are not satisfied to remain where the early church was in its understanding of doctrine. That would be a desire to return to the embryo rather than the more fully formed life. And yet the embryonic give us our DNA. All branches of Christianity need to recognize that their fully developed brand is missing in the first five centuries.
This might not answer any of your questions but it gives you some sense of my trajectory. That is why I am much more comfortable with Evangelical Catholics Together than is Sproul and company.
If a person confesses the Trinitarian faith of these creeds and practices Christ-loving and Christ-following, I think they form part of the historic stream of the faith.

]]>
By: Steven Menteer https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1660683 Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:01:42 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1660683 What do you mean by historic stream of the Christian faith?

]]>
By: don bryant https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1660656 Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:44:36 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1660656 I think you should go ahead if you are convinced it is essential to the Gospel. There are two things here – believing it is true and believing that if one does not believe it he has compromised the Gospel. It would never be wise to change a belief for crowd acceptance. I agree. My only concern is that when one draws a bullseye around what the Gospel is, there should be utmost carefulness. To include in it what is not in it but only a corollary does a great deal of harm, not only to the Gospel message but also to the unity of Christ’s church. For it would then be to say that others who do not believe in definite atonement do not believe in the Gospel. Is that what one is sure they want to say? That’s all I am concerned about. I am a Westminster grad and believe I have some grasp of the implications and place of this doctrine and very aware of how troubled a history it has even among the Calvinistical.

]]>
By: J. Brandon Burks https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1660598 Wed, 19 Feb 2014 15:17:26 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1660598 Did you mean to say, “also called… Limited atonement”?

]]>
By: Jesse Light https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1660548 Wed, 19 Feb 2014 13:45:10 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1660548 In reply to Don Bryant.

I guess we Calvinists are more concerned with being true to the teaching of Scripture than with the horrors of being isolated and marginal.

]]>
By: Don Bryant https://reformedforum.org/definite-atonement-essential-gospel/#comment-1660533 Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:19:08 +0000 http://reformedforum.wpengine.com/?p=3269#comment-1660533 The one thing where Calvinists most isolate themselves from the historic stream of the Christian faith is just here, definite atonement. Even Calvinists struggle so much with this. How many four point Calvinists do you see, after all? To take the weakest link in the Five Point Chain and make it the very touchstone of the Gospel is a tactic that is sure to isolate Calvinists even further. While you might believe it is true, the strategy to make this “the thing itself” can only ring hollow and in the end marginalize the Calvinist community. While one who lifts up this doctrine might seem to his compatriots a hero and brave, it ghettoizes Calvinism even more. Believe it if you are convinced that the Bible teaches it. But be very careful what you call the Gospel.

]]>