Jon, I appreciate much of what you have said in terms of interpreting appropriate portions of scripture in light of their grammatical and historical context. I agree 100%. For example the spread of the gospel in terms of what the new testament says…ie – the gospel having been preached in all the world. I think the wooden literalistic interpretation you are arguing against here would be better applied to discussions with our premillenial (especially dispensational) brethren.

To give you an example of my perspective I would refer you to ken gentry or rc sproul. Much is shared with the amil position in regards to the timing of the return of Christ, length of the millenium(not literal 1000 years) and appropriately interpreting metaphor as such. Also the already/not yet paradigm. It’s just a matter of degrees I guess. I know of no biblical orthodox postmillenialist that thinks a inantimate object is going to become christian (ie..a building, cup of coffee,etc) however some of the promises of the new heavens and earth appear to be non metaphorical and temporal. They imply a very christianized world with rulers and nations streaming to zion( the church) to worship God.

Do you as an amil think we are in the new heavens and earth? Not the final eschatological one but the post resurrection /ascension new covenant age? If not what is Isaiah 65, the eternal state or the temporal new covenant age?

As far as optimism I would refer you to my previous post and my thoughts on the wilderness wandering motif and exile/judgement model. Also I think maybe your arguments are more against a historical post millennialist position and mine against a more radical two kingdom model. Maybe we’re both straw manning unintentionally.

A great discussion on the various millennial positions is available at desiring God ..http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/conference-messages/an-evening-of-eschatology

Sorry if this post is a little scattered. Enjoy the conversation though, blessings to you.

The optimism of the Amil position lies in the already not yet aspect of its eschatology. Yes we are to continue preaching the gospel through the earth but the gospel has already reached the ends of the earth (Col. 1:23). This is in fact how the Book of Acts is structured. Christ says that the gospel will go out Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Paul reaches the end of the earth when he gets to Rome. Since Paul believed it, I believe it. This doesn’t mean we stop evangelism, any more than the Apostles stopped evangelizing in Jerusalem even thought the gospel had already reached Jerusalem.

The postmil timetable puts a stumbling block between the immanent return of Christ and the continuing outreach of the gospel. Christ can come at any moment to establish perfect peace and rule no matter if the World is in the middle of World War 3. This is why we can pray “come quickly Lord Jesus”, no matter how good or bad our current situation seems to be. The triumph of the Church is marked in a pattern that is the same with Christ. It is a pattern of glory through suffering and death. The world perceives it to be pessimistic but our Lord knows it to be victorious. The Church will never relive its post as a suffering servant until the Lord comes to establish his rest.

As for culture, remember how nebulous that word actually is. Cultural artifacts I highly doubt will be apart of the New Heavens and New Earth. Show me one artifact that will be there. Bach? Well, I love Bach but I think Rachmaninoff had more talent and a better understanding of the Orchestra. But was he a Christian? So whose work gets in? Does Mozart’s stuff get in but D.C. Talk left out? these questions take us into matters that are wholly trivial and suspect from the beginning. I, for one, want an inheritance, including all of the “culture”, to be one made by Jesus Christ himself. I don’t want my cultural projects as an inheritance. I want the mansion prepared before hand by my heavenly Father. Does this mean we stop influencing culture? Ummmm No! We influence anything cultural the same way we are good stewards of our own bodies. No matter how many sit ups I do, that does not mean I will have six pack abs in heaven. No matter how many trees I save, that does not mean that one of those trees could possibly become the tree of life in the final kingdom. I influence culture so that Christ might be made known to man, and that their inner man might be already resurrected with Christ while their bodies fade.

can you see just how optimistic amillennialism is and
how pessimistic a transformational form of postmillennialism really is?”

possible answer: well if i look only at the CURRENT state of the church and culture in america and the west. and if i expect a straight line of progress. if i disregard history and the impact the gospel has had culturally where it has gone. if i relegate much of the old testament prophesies and promises of the rule of Christ (heavenly..not an earthly throne!). if i understand passages in the n.t. to say the church is banished to exile and wilderness wandering ( as disobedient isreal was) instead of viewing the church as the church triumphant and being the generation to move into the promised land under the leadership of the eschatalogical joshua(Jesus).if i equate persecution and cultural impotence as success, then yes i get the picture!

i have never heard an interpretation of the new heavens and earth passages in isaiah from the amil position that doesnt spiritualize them to death. these passages cannot be the eternal state as there is sin, death, childbirth, etc. can you help me understand them from the amil perspective? thanks!

Well spoken.