I would have to agree with Marcus about Augustine’s strong Manichaean bias. It’s been fifty years now since I read von Laue’s book on the young Augustine. At the time, I was taking a year-long course on medieval political thought and had to read the antecedents first: Aristotle, Plato, Cicero and Augustine. We weren’t too concerned about Augustine’s theology but, rather, his views on what bound one citizen to another.

Indeed, we were all happy to move on from The City of God to more well-known household names like Aegidius Romanus et al.. I remember very little about that Augustine interlude except maybe the name for his illegitimate son: Adeodatus, Augustine’s way of saying “Who, me?”

But the one thing I did take away from the Augustine segment was the realization that Augustine’s negative Manichaean anthropology and his ignorance of the Greek Fathers had a profoundly deleterious effect on subsequent theological discussions. I think that there can be little dispute that Luther, and especially Calvin, were the unfortunate heirs of this pessimistic patrimony.

Another small point: since I started listening on-line to theological discussions on this site, WTS/Cal and Issues.etc, all interesting and thoughtful sites, I have come across frequent references to the “medieval Church” as if the so-called medieval Church is a different kettle of fish from the Church of previous times. I have yet to hear an intellligent explanation of this oft-used phrase. Also, the various solas are certainly not found in the early creeds and I think that there is a phrase in the Athanasian Creed that would be described by the the Reformed adherents as works righteousness. When I first heard “law and gospel” I thought it was some form of literary criticism. Did the Holy Spirit go on vacation from AD100 to AD 1511? Remember the Gates of Hell etc.

Speaking of the Gates of Hell, so much of this sectarian bickering is helping the true enemy, Islam. Start with the latest research, albeit controversial, in Qur’anic studies, men like Puin and Luxenberg, if you want to do something constructive with your time.

Ad maiorem Dei gloriam,

Steve .

Michael seems abit shy when he says Calvin uses the Church Fathers in his (calvins) writings.He quotes Augustine,then John Chrysostom…hardly early church Fathers!(4th and 5th century)It is a known fact that Calvin never really used the early church Fathers to prove his point concerning totally depravity, no free will etc, because Calvins teaching,ie, Augustinism, was a complete break from early church orthodoxy.Augustinism,ie, Calvinism,was viewed as heresey by the early church fathers many years previously. The early fathers saw it for what it truely was, and still is, a form of gnosticism.The lack of quotations from Ignatius,polycarp,justin martyr,clement,irenaeus, etc etc etc, is to obvious to be ignored.Maybe Calvin forgot what else J chrysostom said on hebrews,homily 12,”all is in Gods power,but so that our free will is not lost…it depends therefore on us and on him.We must first choose the good,and then he adds what belongs to him.he does not precede our willing,that our free will does not suffer.But when we have chosen,then he affords us much help…it is ours to choose beforehand and to will,but God’s to perfect and bring to the end”.An honest study of the early church fathers, without bringing any baggage with you,will truely liberate anyone.Calvin clearly stayed away from the fathers, i wonder why???

Nick, couldn’t agree with you more. I’m Catholic, I feel it is awefully difficult for a non Catholic to read these guys and either become Catholic or completely reject them. I agree that any Protestant must condemn them.

There was no Eastern Orthodox. Besides, Eastern Orthodox are really called Eastern Orthodox Catholic. They only disagree on the issue of how much primacy the Bishop of Rome has. Otherwise, there exactly the same.

That’s an interesting way of thinking. Maybe the church fathers were Eastern Orthodox?

The Church Fathers were Catholic and any genuine Protestant would have to condemn most of them as preaching a false Gospel.